Will DJI add RTH for phone-only Neo setup?

[Droning on and on...]

His point is that control through the app being limited to 30m doesn't in any way mean RTH would need to be limited to that too.

And that's the problem: Yes it does.

The FAA requires you be in control of the drone at all times. As such, you can not deliberately take some action that you know will result in a loss of control.

DJI has apparently determined the 30m height limit as necessary for that purpose. We can speculate otherwise, but we didn't do the testing DJI has, nor seen the results.

In any case, it's irrelevant. The question was, why no RTH in phone manual? The answer is height is limited to 30m.

 

[Kilrah]

The FAA requires you be in control of the drone at all times. As such, you can not deliberately take some action that you know will result in a loss of control.

Doesn't make any sense, if that was the argument then no other drone would have RTH on signal loss because we'd somehow be covering our eyes and pretending unexpected signal loss can't happen. You totally can have actions that would put any other drone with RTH deliberately in a loss of control situation and also have it happen without any action of your own just the same as here.

 

[Umpa]

His point is that control through the app being limited to 30m doesn't in any way mean RTH would need to be limited to that too.

Thank you. I am sure he understands

 

[Umpa]

For me, I not so sure I'd even want RTH on the phone only control for all of the reasons mentioned above. When I fly with the N3 controller, most of the time I have the NEO set to 'hover' if it loses connection. The environment I mostly fly it in - along trails with a full tree canopy, or close to the ground - is not suitable for a typical RTH scenario. If I am flying in an open space similar to where I fly my other camera drones, then I will set RTH to come back on signal loss but I don't often use the NEO in this way since I have other camera drones that are more suitable for that purpose.

Chris

That does not mean it is not doable, nor desirable for others. Whether they implement it or nor not is yet to be seen I guess, one thing for sure is that haviing it does not mean you have to use it. I have been nothing but civil in my replies too.

 

[Umpa]

And that's the problem: Yes it does.

The FAA requires you be in control of the drone at all times. As such, you can not deliberately take some action that you know will result in a loss of control.

DJI has apparently determined the 30m height limit as necessary for that purpose. We can speculate otherwise, but we didn't do the testing DJI has, nor seen the results.

In any case, it's irrelevant. The question was, why no RTH in phone manual? The answer is height is limited to 30m.

Well - FAA is just one governing body it's not one to rule them all. And I am sure you are incorrect because RTH is triggered when the drone is low on battery, or loss of signal, the latter being that you are not in control either. You really do seem to be hung up on 30M for some reason, you know it is still entirely possible to be flying with the RC at 30M and still have a RTH condition. Anyway - to be clear you have not answered my question only given your opinion - which is fine I am cool with that. Time will tell if they implement it or not - either way I don't believe it will be a technical reason or legation, more they may think it is not necessary. Which IMO is a mistake

 

[Chrislaf]

That does not mean it is not doable, nor desirable for others. Whether they implement it or nor not is yet to be seen I guess, one thing for sure is that haviing it does not mean you have to use it. I have been nothing but civil in my replies too.

@Umpa, I wasn’t criticizing you but just stating how I fly the NEO. Yes, it is doable and some people may desire it but for me it is not something I desire or want with phone only control. I would rather have the ability to tweak camera settings (ISO, shutter speed, EV).

I have also been civil in my comments on this discussion.

Chris

 

[Umpa]

@Umpa, I wasn’t criticizing you but just stating how I fly the NEO. Yes, it is doable and some people may desire it but for me it is not something I desire or want with phone only control. I would rather have the ability to tweak camera settings (ISO, shutter speed, EV).

I have also been civil in my comments on this discussion.

Chris

Indeed we have. Others might think I was not, but that's life I guess.

 

[Umpa]

This is what the manual says about RTH

RTH Procedure
After RTH is triggered, the aircraft brakes and hovers in place.
If the RTH distance is farther than 20 m, it ascends to the RTH altitude and flies backto the Home Point. The aircraft flies to the Home Point at the current altitude if the current altitude is higher than the RTH altitude.•
If the RTH distance is farther than 5 m but less than 20 m, the aircraft adjusts its orientation and flies straight at the current altitude back to the Home Point.•
The aircraft lands immediately if the RTH distance is less than 5

It is important to set a suitable RTH altitude before each flight.
Launch DJI Fly and set the RTH altitude.
The default RTH altitude is 30 m.

 

[Droning on and on...]

Doesn't make any sense, if that was the argument then no other drone would have RTH on signal loss

It makes perfect sense.

The FAA requires you maintain control of your aircraft at all times. This means you can not do something deliberately that causes you to lose control. For example planning and flying a waypoint mission that flies autonomously out of range and returns.

However, the FAA also recognizes that contact can be lost accidentally. For example, equipment failure – your RC blows an IC and dies. You are not violating any rules when this happens, and the regs address this explicitly.

Does that make sense?

So, no RTH on phone control for the reasons stated above.

 

[Kilrah]

Does that make sense?

No.

However, the FAA also recognizes that contact can be lost accidentally. For example, equipment failure – your RC blows an IC and dies. You are not violating any rules when this happens, and the regs address this explicitly.

Your phone can crash/run out of battery. How's that different?

 

[Droning on and on...]

No.


Your phone can crash/run out of battery. How's that different?

That's not, you're right.

What is hugely different is DJI has no control over your phone, what phone you use, or the reach and reliability of the wifi signal. So they can't test and characterize the range and reliability to the FCC and FAA of the complete system.

This is required by the FCC. There's legitimate question whether the Neo is legal at all in palm or phone control.

DJI has limited use in both cases, I speculate for these reasons. I accept that you disagree.

 

[fangz]

His point is that control through the app being limited to 30m doesn't in any way mean RTH would need to be limited to that too.

The argument is basically about this scenario:

1. You have your drone hovering around doing whatever. All flying normally and under phone control.

2. A low battery condition arises, triggering RTH

3. The drone now rises up to RTH altitude, breaking your wifi connection. You are now unable to cancel RTH.

4. The out of control drone crashes into a helicopter or something and murders a dozen orphans.

Now who has liability in this situation? It would seem to be Dji. The user is operating the drone normally but dji's software chose to take the drone out of control irreversibly, without the users deliberate decision, leading to disaster. With a normal O4 controlled drone this situation would not arise, as the drone would typically be under control (so you can override RTH) throughout, and if the RTH does take the drone out of control it can only really do this if the drone was already out of control to begin with, so DJI has not made the situation any worse. But the short range of the WiFi signal makes this a real possibility (because it's very possible that simply increasing attitude could break wifi connection, whereas the multi-km range of O4 makes this impossible), as does the expected use case of the drone (e.g. follow mode, which can take the drone and the user quite far from it's starting home point).

I think DJI could fix this with a custom version of RTH for phone use, which would probably involve the drone just flying level with it's present altitude straight at the phone's last seen GPS location.

 

[Droning on and on...]

Thanks @fangz for explaining this much better and clearer than I was!

I think DJI could fix this with a custom version of RTH for phone use, which would probably involve the drone just flying level with it's present altitude straight at the phone's last seen GPS location.

I think this rather difficult, to impossible, as DJI has no control over the phone being used. Some have really crappy wifi range, especially cheap ones.

In any case, it's an unknown, so as DJI is engineering a solution to meet regulatory requirements, what do they test?

The only way I could see this happening is limiting support for phone control to a limited set of phones that work and have been tested.

Given the target user, that's not going to happen.

 

[Kilrah]

Still makes no sense to me.

Your RC can run out of battery and you're in the same situation with every other DJI aircraft.
DJI could limit RTH setting to 10m or so when phone-operated.

 

[fangz]

Still makes no sense to me.

Your RC can run out of battery and you're in the same situation with every other DJI aircraft.
DJI could limit RTH setting to 10m or so when phone-operated.

Why is that similar? It's extremely unlikely for the software to take you automatically into an uncontrollable state. That's the critical difference. If you are piloting on an empty RC battery that happens to run out of power before the RTH completes that's your fault for not keeping the RC charged, you would have also lost control if RTH *wasn't* carried out, so DJI has no culpability. The RTH will generally trigger before you fully run out of RC charge also (and you will have to endure an annoying low RC battery beeping for ~30 minutes beforehand, as that warning triggers at 15%), enabling you to have a fully controlled RTH or to land the drone where it is, so you really have to have gone out of your way to get your drone in trouble.

The key component is: can this system create a safety hazard that doesn't otherwise exist in a way that isn't due to the clear intentional behaviour of the operator? If the answer is yes this is a clear litigation threat for DJI. A scenario where an user loses control after ignoring a loud beeping sound and warning message for about half an hour just isn't the same as "DJI designed my drone to just decide to fly off".

As I said, it might be possible to create a workable custom phone version of RTH but it's not obvious. Add into that neo's lack of automatic collision avoidance and it becomes quite a tricky problem, so it makes sense to me that "just wait and hover" is considered a reasonable alternative. Just an altitude limit is not a solution, as if the drone was above that altitude, descending to that height might also break wifi connection if something is in the way.

 

[GFields]

I agree with OMM that is a range issue while using the phone. Although I have used my phone, I predominately use the controller.

 

[Chrislaf]

I agree with OMM that is a range issue while using the phone. Although I have used my phone, I predominately use the controller.

I also predominantly use the controller. I have used the phone as well for control but I don't feel that I have as much control. I also don't think DJI will add RTH to it because phone control is already limited.

Chris