Laws, and Guidelines (just more laws?), Notification vs Authorization

[Poverty Flyer]

Why is recreation becoming so hard?
I used to love to fish but with so many laws and rules I've about given it up. Where, when, how many and what is this fish? I can't just drop a bobber and relax and have some fun. License fees, launch fees and specialized knowledge required.

I live in a small city outside Seattle. We have a small, daylight only, VFR Municipal airport. The city has an ordinance concerning it. It says; Once you have complied with all FAA requirements prior to flying a UAS/Drone, hobbyist pilots are required to notify the ......... Municipal Airport if operating within the five (5) mile radius of the airport itself.
It gives a email address and phone number (voice mail).

The area is all CLASS G AIRSPACE

So I sent a email to get clarification as follows;
How much time do you require for notification to fly my <250 gram quad within 5 miles of the airport?
I would be flying strictly for recreational purposes at an altitude of less than 100 feet agl for less than 15 minutes at a time. Will you provide a yes or no answer or does simple notification meet the requirements ?
All other regulations and safety guidelines both federal and local will be followed of course.

Thank you for your response to this information seeking resident of ........

The response was as follows;
Hello John. Can you provide the location of where you will be flying it from?

Blue Skies,

Tim xxxxxxxx,
Airport Manager

I sent a response with the coordinates.
No further communication from him.

Did I just notify and receive acknowledgment?
I would of expected the need for more info such as date, time, duration, flight path and maybe more. But I didn't. Can I step outside and fly at will now in this area?
Clear as muddy water.
Notification is not the same as authorization. Or is it?
Guidelines seem to be the same as rules (laws). Or is it?

The City also has ordinances as follows; The city has implemented a strict rule prohibiting drone use over private property or within 50 feet of residential buildings and a strict speed limit of 22 mph.
The 22 mph law is well documented. The private property law not so much.
But it's my private property!
I understand expectation of privacy but this seems a little over the top.
I'll close my eyes when flying over the naked sunbather in their back yard. I promise. I think her name is Karen?!
Is that what all pilots do? Yeah, right.

Can't fly in Nat'l, State or City / County Parks. Also illegal is drug use, alcohol, smoking and guns at parks but we all know how well that is enforced!
It's Seattle everywhere is a residential area including public sidewalks and thruways!

I may have to give up my recreational hobbies and go for Political Recreation. That's where all the $$ and fun is these days. Give me a couple million $ and I'll work up a study on this crap (might go over budget though).




Cheers,

 

[NeoNeo]

Laws and regulations. Just life as it is. Enforcement? When someone or some agency decides to. Like... the DJI drone that crashed into the super scooper that Canada provided during the LA fires, the DJI flier that flew over into controlled airspace over a NFL game (?steelers.v ravens), the Philly whatever who also used a DJI UAS. The list goes on...... Like the host at Pilot Inst. notes on their weekly round up news, "don't be that...."

Have had drones recording me at the local ski area. Tourist. There is a WI statue that can result in a misdemeanor charge if a person feels their privacy is infringed upon by a UAS that is recording video and/or audio of them. Also the management was unaware that you need a Part 107 for anything but "recreational" flying. Unaware that users must have TRUST certification and proof of when flying anywhere. Maybe why they pulled a promo video after I asked who. Drones have been shot down. No consequences. Relatively clear violation of FAA, Fed Laws and regs. Life.

JMHO, recreation is not a right. It's a privilege. Unfortunately violators of best practices result in laws, regulations. More and more with more instances of poor behavior. Regarding a sub 250gm drone. Bird hits can cause issues with aircraft. The super scooper incident resulted in the DJI drone lodged into the leading edge of the plane. Pretty significant damage from what looked to be a DJI Mini. Imagine if the plane would have crashed?

 

[GFields]

Laws, and Guidelines (just more laws?), Notification vs Authorization​

They are placed for public safety.
Opting not to fly a drone because of them would be like stopping driving because of speed limits or wearing a seat belt.
My reply is not intended to sound snarky, but the truth is that, regardless of what we do, there will always be laws and regulations that must be obeyed to keep everyone safe.

 

[Poverty Flyer]

Thanks guys,

@GFields Of course I am going to fish and fly. I was being facetious. There are many reasons beside "public safety" for laws. Safety is of course paramount. No argument there.
@NeoNeo Interesting view. I never considered right vs privilege. I think a case could be made for both. what with Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness and all.

Folks,
I'm trying to follow the laws / rules not break them. Trying to NOT be "that guy" unknowingly.

I am a drummer and I have a service dog. I have many rules / laws that I abide by. Or at least try to. I've not had any issues with either all these years.
It seems that nowadays laws are written to be litigated not enforced. Common sense goes a long way but seems in short supply.
We don't need more laws just enforce the ones we have or litigate them to an end. I'm not the one to litigate any (if I have a choice).

Is there any opinion on weather or not I can go outside and fly my drone today in the area noted without further action in regards to the airport issue?

So far I have been unable to verify the 50ft residential area ordinance. Might be hearsay? I want to fly not spy or conduct surveillance. I will leave that for all the cameras trained on me as I step out my door. More than once my wife has received a call from a neighbor that said " I saw that you went to Kroger (grocery), what did you buy?)".
We can have the expectation of privacy but rarely do we get it laws or not.

Any time I have had a question regarding where I can fly, the answer is always the FAA is the only agency (in the USA) that can regulate airspace but then followed by "but check with state / local laws in your area. Clear as muddy water again.

Ignorance of the law may not be a defense but it seems can be a reason to get into trouble.
If Karen wants to sunbathe naked in her fenced in yard (which is illegal here) I don't care at all. But if I unintentionally catch a glimpse of it while flying over the area I shouldn't be cited for breaking privacy laws.

Just sayin'


Have a great day,

 

[Poverty Flyer]

 

[Dogpilot]

Cities can write all the ordinances they want. When it comes to airspace it is only the FAA that can govern it, not cities. For example, You cannot fly drones in National Parks. You can however, fly a drone over a National Park, provided you takeoff and land outside the park boundaries (my takeoff path here in Flagstaff goes directly over a National Park from the airport). Cities can regulate landings and takeoffs within their city limits. As for Airports, well that is a very clear regulation and has been one from the onset. Being a professional pilot, I really do not want hobbits drones within the airport lateral boundaries. While you may think your sub 250gr drone is no paticular threat, I have had a bat strike, yes a tiny tiny featherweight bat. It caused $3,000 damage. Your drone is not in the least squishy like a bat and would cause significantly more damage. I would be inclined to find you and extract a like amount in damage. Now if you have a 107 License you can operate in the area of an uncontrolled airport, provided you have an airband transceiver, a radio station operator's permit and follow the procedures making broadcasts. Just like we do in regular aircraft. We have to make calls in the blind to alert anybody in the airspace, or should somebody answer, talk directly with them. You are under the same rules for communication and it is just common sense and being a polite professional operator, aside from it being an actual enforceable law. Of course that assumes there is anybody left at the FAA doing enforcement.

 

[Poverty Flyer]

@Dogpilot Great, another perspective and or opinion. That's one reason I come to these forums.
If I had you're knowledge and experience as a pilot I might have the same point of view for a reason.
But, remember the context of the situation. I am within 5 miles of the airport flying no greater than 100ft AGL. If one of us hits the other you are having a really bad day and I'm about to.

I do however get your point.

Thanks,

Lets hope there is still somebody at the FAA. And also the control tower when you need.

 

[NeoNeo]

Suggestion. Air Aware app. Resource I downloaded when deciding to get back into UASs. IIRC a Pilot Institute, Aloft, B4UFLY collaboration . Take one moment to check out the current restrictions if any from where you are launching from. DJI seems to do an ok job in informing you if close or within restricted airspace. But Air Aware is more to the moment. Air space restrictions can change. As UAS operators we are responsible to determine if conditions are safe and unrestricted to fly. Simple to do with recent tech. Lets not give the anti-drone lobby more "reasons" for more restrictions or import bans or ????

OT story. There is a large river valley just S of the ridge I live on. Couple rivers that created a flood plain, marsh area that private civilian aircraft seem to like flying below 400ft elevation. House is a bit over 350ft above the valley. I occasionally see planes below me. Last "scenic" run for the planes heading to an uncontrolled airport about 5 miles from the end of the valley. Tour planes running along the shoreline what seems to be at very low elevation. Then there are the F-16s out of base west of here to I'm guessing the restricted military area located over a section of L. Superior. When they fly relatively low I hear them come and go but rarely see them. And sometimes "feel" them. Reasons why Neo flies just above or below the tree line when flying over my property. Crowded skies at times.

 

[Poverty Flyer]

Thanks.
I have tried Air Aware. It's ok but I prefer Auto Pylot and Air Control (for cloud ceiling and weather).
Both are reviewed pre-filght.
They seem accurate and always match.

Your area seems potentially noisy and busy.
I have a military Air Base about 20 miles away and see fighter jets (hear) occasionally also.
The municipal airport has small craft and helicopters all day long.
I fly below 100ft AGL in my area to stay out of their way and never in the landing / take-off path.
It's a small 1 runway daylight only airport. All Class G airspace.

It might be easier if it was controlled airspace with LAANC?
At least it would be clear what to do and easy.

I have my TRUST and CBO guidelines in my go fly case and on my phone.
I also have pre-flight check lists with maintenance records.
It might be overkill but I read they can be required.
I may get the 107 but for now I don't see any advantage in it for me at this time. I'm not interested in any commercial use.
That would make my hobby work and I'm done with that crap!

I'm retired and every day is Saturday.
At least my body and mind think so!

Be well and safe,

 

[NeoNeo]

Actually very quiet. Noisy birds especially at sunrise and sunset. My natural alarm clock. Dark skies at night. Some winter nights the Milky Way just pops. County population density is less than 10 people/sq mile except when the seasonals and tourist arrive. Largest "city" is just over 2000. Covid and climate refugees brought a sudden surge in population. Enough to boost the median household income up by over 50% in a year. No idea what their income sources are. Lack of employment opportunities keeps the population down. Most have realized what rural living is and have moved elsewhere. But they have kept their homes. Housing crunch like most places. Makes for a more quiet place to live again. Air base is ~70 miles west of here. But the F-16s occasionally run due E and low over the peninsula directly to the restricted area to do whatever they do there. The people with $$$$s that live on the Island do not come by road. Private aircraft.

 

[Poverty Flyer]

Well done sir!
Sounds like a paradise.
Except for maybe the temperatures and all that frozen white stuff during certain times?


America the Beautiful Is all around us for the viewing.

Easy does it,

 

[Poverty Flyer]

I did finally hear back from the airport manager.
He said no problem and to give 24 hours notice.
I think flying outside the 5 mile radius of the airport will be less hassle as the weather here changes much faster than 24 hours especially wind speeds.

It would be much easier if the airspace wasn't G and LAANC were available.
Funny how that works out.

 

[NealW]

"You cannot fly drones in National Parks. You can however, fly a drone over a National Park, provided you takeoff and land outside the park boundaries (my takeoff path here in Flagstaff goes directly over a National Park from the airport)."

Please correct me if I'm wrong. It is my understanding that a National Park is a no fly zone. No flight at all in the airspace above a National Park. That how it looks to me on a Sectional Chart.

As the OP was posting, drone flight rules can get complex.

Neal

 

[Dogpilot]

Nope, not so. Depends on the park and if Congress has passed rules governing the airspace. The Grand Canyon is not really a "No Fly" zone, but rather a fly at specific routes at specific altitudes (really there are no rules, since in the last 25 years Congress has not really passed them and published them in the CFR and Congressional Register). Then, if you are in the process of conducting a takeoff and landing, you can also overfly the Grand Canyon. This is due to several airports that underlie the noted airspace, such as "Cliff Dwellers Airport." Screwy, yes. For example if "Walnut Canyon" and "Sunset Crater" National Park/Monuments where closed airspace Then It would literally close Flagstaff Airport, since all the approaches go over them, outside the airport area. The ILS goes right over them. Of course it could just be an addition to the list of potential felonies I commit every day, inadvertently.

 

[Dogpilot]

From The FAA's Website:​

No Drone Zone​

What is a No Drone Zone?​

The FAA uses the term "No Drone Zone" to help people identify areas where they cannot operate a drone or unmanned aircraft system (UAS). The operating restrictions for a No Drone Zone are specific to a particular location. You can find out if there are airspace restrictions where you are planning to fly using the B4UFLY service.

No Drone Zone Areas​

• Restricted Airspace: The FAA prohibits drone flight over certain areas of airspace.
• Local Restrictions: In some locations, drone takeoffs and landings are restricted by state, local, territorial, or tribal government agencies. The FAA has provided No Drone Zone sign that can be used by these governments to identify areas where there are local flight restrictions. It is important to note, these No Drone Zones only restrict taking off or landing and do not restrict flight in the airspace above the identified area.
• Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) define a certain area of airspace where air travel is limited for a period and may be in place for different reasons. The FAA may use the term "No Drone Zone" to identify an area where there is a TFR. Examples include, major sporting events, space launch and reentry operations, presidential movements, or in security sensitive areas designated by federal agencies.
  
  Restriction details of the TFR include, size, altitude, date/time, and what types of operations are restricted and permitted. All pilots are required to adhere to the restrictions of the TFR.

I'm a drone operator. What if I see a ‘No Drone Zone’ sign?​

A No Drone Zone sign lets you know that taking off or landing your drone from the designated area is not allowed, per local restrictions. Be aware that even if you have an airspace authorization to fly in the airspace over this area, you do not have authorization to take off or land from the property designated as a local No Drone Zone. In other words, airspace authorization does not mean land use approval.

I'm a state, local, territorial, or tribal government entity. What resources are available to me?​

Only the FAA can restrict airspace. However, the FAA recognizes that drone safety is a partnership with local, state, tribal, and territorial government entities who have rights to regulate where drones are allowed to take off and land.

We have developed a sign that government entities can customize and use for their specific needs and locations. Signage should cite specific statutes or local regulations/policies that apply. The sign is not for private landowners.

 

[Poverty Flyer]

IMHO, You might be able to fly over the parks but you'll need a big battery.
And a crash landing is still a landing. Generally the good sights are nowhere near the outside perimeter of the parks.

I don't mind the "No drone zone"
But at least give some YES drone zones!
Just sayin'

 

[Dogpilot]

Most National parks are not that big. This is a 3D rendering of Walnut Canyon National Park. It was done with a Mavic 3E and consumed two batteries (done in sequence). I literally flew from the fence line. So it is workable. No, you won't be able to do the Grand Canyon, but why I have airplanes.



This one is on private land, but I flew from a Forest Service road adjacent. 3 Batteries in the Mavic 3E.



This one is on the Navajo Reservation, again I am just outside the fence line. I have a platform on top of my Land Rover I can sit up there and get about 2 miles better range.